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Do we refine our bonsai too much?
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Author:  keithmart [ 28 Nov 2018, 10:53 ]
Post subject:  Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Hi

The weather here in Leeds is horrible, I have been looking at old Japanese pictures with bonsai in them. I would guess the age of them would be about 1900. What do you think of the trees?

Author:  Gary Jones [ 28 Nov 2018, 11:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Nice old pictures. Thanks for sharing.

No - we don't refine too much - the art/hobby like any similar activity just moves on with time especially now with the easy dissemination of knowledge through the internet and forums like this one.

I'm sure that the folk pictured were very happy with their trees - they were probably good trees in their day.

Author:  Penny Ann [ 28 Nov 2018, 11:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

I think this is something that happens in many situations overtime. Everybody is happy with a standard until somebody tweaks it. A good example is in dog showing. If you look at photographs from the early Crufts show, the hair cuts were very simple and still practical in relation to the dogs job. These days it is all extreme hair dressing. To give another dog example. Fifty years ago I used to breed Bearded collies, when they were classified as a rare breed. The dogs were shown on a loose lead, and usually until they were examined by the judge, were lying on their backs or playing with the dog next to them. Then somebody taught one to stand like a rock, and with five years that was the 'norm'. Their coats were short as they were still working dogs, now they look like Afghan hounds.
So I think this is what has happened with bonsai. We see trees at major exhibitions and try to emulate them. How often have we seen what we consider to be a lovely tree, only for it's owner to chop it down and start again. Sometimes I think it would be better to start a fresh tree and allow the other the chance to mature. Of course our UK climate is a lot to blame, we have too much time with nothing else to do other than ponder on what we are going to do with our trees once the pruning season starts!

Author:  BrendanJ [ 28 Nov 2018, 11:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Not sure, but for sure we in this country have a very different styling philosophy than I have witnessed in Japan and which these photographs demonstrate very well

Japan to my mind look for form, beauty the worship of nature in all its guises, a flower is still a thing of beauty in there mind as it pronounces the arrival of spring, even if it's on an old gnarled leggy stick of a tree, which is what we see in these photos
This is why very often in this country many bonsai people even fail to understand literati as they expect bonsai to be simply a "mini tree" and thus devote all of their energies to mimicking what they believe best achieves this goal
Instead there is a place for creating form and beauty, even though the viewers response might be "what is it" or "that branch is in the wrong place" because it does not conform to a tree like image

So I suppose what I am saying is no I don't think we refine too much but I do think we are a little restricted in the images we are trying to achieve and the perfection of " a tree in a pot" which is clearly not how Japanese see it, more of an ascetic art form of nature

Just one personal view

Author:  darreng [ 28 Nov 2018, 12:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

I think in the west we tend to do 'masculine' trees a lot.

I think there is room for a lot more feminine styled trees. Even more abstract works.

Perhaps it could be said that we focus more on creating a snapshot of a tree in time, rather than valuing the passage of time.

Author:  Loufada [ 28 Nov 2018, 14:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Thanks for sharing indeed. I love looking back too. You also can see bonsai featuring in old Japanese paintings and they do look very similar to those trees here in your pictures.


I too think it's how anything elvolves. Knowledge expands rapidely and therefore more people have access to techniuques and therefore there are more opportunities for improvements. Whereas you would have had a local expert, ready (or not!) to share his skills, now you can have access to any advanced techniques for free in two clicks.

I remember learning about bonsai before the internet by reading books. There wasn't that many around, pictures were seldom, soils were mostly organic, there was no video actually showing how to do stuff. You mostly had a picture of the final result. Look where we are now! And I am not that old!


One thing though that I'd like to hear about. Why is there so little noise about Chinese style? More round than the Japanse. You almost never hear about it those days.

Author:  Penny Ann [ 28 Nov 2018, 14:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Another point, is we have much better tools. I wonder how many people would do the amazing carving we see if we didn't have power tools.

Author:  BrendanJ [ 28 Nov 2018, 17:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

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Take your last photo for example

This Bonsai is not the result of poor technique, or evolving techniques, but it is in a dramatically different style to that we are used to in the UK certainly. It also does not resemble any known tree I would recognise and therefore is not being constrained by Bonsai styling rules
Although these are clearly old photos I dont think it is the case that it is just the fashion of the time, these exist even now in this kind of style in Japan, but you wont find such styling easily In the UK certainly, so for us it becomes either "Not Bonsai", or "Old style", nether of which is correct in my view.
It is also not a function of developing techniques or tools, I have a tree just like this "A Prunus Mume" sourced from Japan and rarely seen in the UK and to be honest in my experience it confuses people as it does not conform to what they expect of a Bonsai, " a mini tree in a pot"
The point I am making here is we have become somewhat rigid in what we expect of a Bonsai, even so called Modern styling and excess of carving is rejected by many
Dont get me wrong, I also really like the artistry demonstrated in creating something small, that looks like an aged and larger tree, its a real art to create that. But so is literati (few can successfully achieve it) and also the modernistic and creative styling achieved often with carving which often do not resemble a tree at all.

Again the question posed was "Do we refine our bonsai too much?" with these photos used to suggest that in the past they did not as much as we do now, but that is to miss a much more important point...... In my view:)

Author:  Sizzla [ 29 Nov 2018, 21:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Bjorn discusses this in his latest podcast, called Gendai bonsai. Which basically means contemporary bonsai. It's worth a listen.

Wire has only been used for a few decades so it's unsurprising that Bonsai of previous eras were looser and less refined.

I think it was Ryan neils podcast that touched on the reason modern Japanese bonsai is so focused on tight and refined foliage and compact apex. Something to do with the kokofu ten being judged by not-strictly-bonsai people a few years ago which always judged the more refined, tight trees better and so pushed the modern aesthetic into that direction. And he is trying to break free from that way of doing things.

Author:  BrendanJ [ 29 Nov 2018, 22:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Do we refine our bonsai too much?

Thanks Sizzla,
Very interesting listening, in fact my first ever podcast no less

It certainly draws some distinction between let's say, on some different era of bonsai in Japan and explains some differences in styling, and maybe to lesser extent technique, but my biggest take home from this is that Bonsai is not just about an application of preset and rigid rules to achieve pleasing results but can and should be more flexible than that

As beginners we yearn for rules we can learn and apply with predictable results but I am pleased to hear vocalised here a more flexible, but reasoned approach

"Do we refine our bonsai too much?" Is still the question posed ::dunno:

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