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buds and root query
http://weetrees.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14057		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  tismeisthatu [ 22 Sep 2015, 19:37 ]
Post subject:  buds and root query
Ok I have 2 questions. Firstly I have a hornbeam in the ground to thicken it up, which is what it is doing nicely but I have no branches or visible buds on the lower part of the tree. My 1st question is when it comes to chopping of the top will this force buds to appear roughly where I want them to. I ask this daft question as I had a hornbeam in a pot that I did not like but had the beginning of some nice nebari, so I chopped the top off trying to make a mame or shohin tree anticipating buds to break but after nearly 2 years no buds have appeared. It is still alive & is healing around the chop. Will it ever bud?
2nd question still concerning the same tree. Again nice nebari is there but how do I look after & control these roots? I need to keep the roots close to the tree for when I transfer it in to a pot. Do I lift it & cut back the roots & therefore slow down the growth of my tree. It has yet to reach my desired thickness I should add. Or do I let the tree grow on until desired size is met & then concentrate on the roots. Any tips or advice will be well received. I hope that all made sense, thanks.
Author:  BobbyLane [ 22 Sep 2015, 20:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
tismeisthatu wrote:
Ok I have 2 questions. Firstly I have a hornbeam in the ground to thicken it up, which is what it is doing nicely but I have no branches or visible buds on the lower part of the tree. My 1st question is when it comes to chopping of the top will this force buds to appear roughly where I want them to. I ask this daft question as I had a hornbeam in a pot that I did not like but had the beginning of some nice nebari, so I chopped the top off trying to make a mame or shohin tree anticipating buds to break but after nearly 2 years no buds have appeared. It is still alive & is healing around the chop. Will it ever bud?
2nd question still concerning the same tree. Again nice nebari is there but how do I look after & control these roots? I need to keep the roots close to the tree for when I transfer it in to a pot. Do I lift it & cut back the roots & therefore slow down the growth of my tree. It has yet to reach my desired thickness I should add. Or do I let the tree grow on until desired size is met & then concentrate on the roots. Any tips or advice will be well received. I hope that all made sense, thanks.


Would help with pics, also how long has this tree been in the ground? you also have this tree in a pot that you chopped down to shohin size and it hasnt produced a bud in two years, so does it already have other growth on it? you kind of made it sound like you've had a stump in a pot that has no growth on it.
my first throughts are feed feed feed, but im sure someone better experienced in ground growing will put you on the right path ;-)
Author:  tismeisthatu [ 22 Sep 2015, 20:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
BobbyLane wrote:
tismeisthatu wrote:
Ok I have 2 questions. Firstly I have a hornbeam in the ground to thicken it up, which is what it is doing nicely but I have no branches or visible buds on the lower part of the tree. My 1st question is when it comes to chopping of the top will this force buds to appear roughly where I want them to. I ask this daft question as I had a hornbeam in a pot that I did not like but had the beginning of some nice nebari, so I chopped the top off trying to make a mame or shohin tree anticipating buds to break but after nearly 2 years no buds have appeared. It is still alive & is healing around the chop. Will it ever bud?
2nd question still concerning the same tree. Again nice nebari is there but how do I look after & control these roots? I need to keep the roots close to the tree for when I transfer it in to a pot. Do I lift it & cut back the roots & therefore slow down the growth of my tree. It has yet to reach my desired thickness I should add. Or do I let the tree grow on until desired size is met & then concentrate on the roots. Any tips or advice will be well received. I hope that all made sense, thanks.


Would help with pics, also how long has this tree been in the ground? you also have this tree in a pot that you chopped down to shohin size and it hasnt produced a bud in two years, so does it already have other growth on it? you kind of made it sound like you've had a stump in a pot that has no growth on it.
my first throughts are feed feed feed, but im sure someone better experienced in ground growing will put you on the right path ;-)


The tree has been in the ground for nearly 3 years & this year the growth has been massive. It's nearly 10' tall but it's not the height I'm concerned about. The bottom 10" has no buds but unfortunately this is where I want the buds. I was hoping for a chunky small tree but I will choose the appropriate size tree to whatever branches it throws out, if it does. The other tree in question 2 is exactly as you said, a stump in a pot, it's probably no bigger than 3" but the nebari would've helped make a nice small tree if it was to ever throw buds. It was something I was just going to throw away but I thought I would give those roots a chance.
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Author:  BobbyLane [ 22 Sep 2015, 20:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
From my experience with chopping trees and hard pruning, it usually triggers buds lower down to form, also when carrying out such work i feed heavily. but yes some trees can still be quite stubborn.
I didnt know a tree could survive without any growth on it for two years mate, let alone start callusing over. someone with better knowledge will advise you, im stumped on that one mate literally :-)

ps have you done the bark scratch test on this? :203pokey:
Author:  Bill [ 22 Sep 2015, 21:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
i don't know about the first question, but if its still alive keep watering and see what happens. might make a story one day. what time of year did you chop it?

second q, lifting and sorting the nebari is part of the ground growing process. you can't thicken the trunk any more without changing the nebari, however hard pruning large roots in the nebari will mean that they will not thicken up at their bases for a while and you may get some new roots closer in that will thicken above them, in due time if the tree is let grow again for a couple of seasons.

from how much the roots have thickened this year, you could extrapolate how much bigger they will be with another year's growth; this might fit with your plans and you will get another years thickness into the trunk before you need to do rootwork and slow down the tree. the roots will get bigger, but slower than the trunk. if you think of the trunk as gaining girth proportionally to how much all the top and bottom grow, each branch gains girth, at a point, proportional to how much it grows above that point and each root in the nebari proportional to how much new root it grows from that root. this is simplified of course but is the general idea of what happens, imo. if you want to tightly control the look of the nebari you will need strategically placed sacrifice roots, like with branches.

so yeah, i think you need to judge if you can get away with leaving it another year or if you need to do some rootwork, but you can't change the trunk without changing roots and branches.

on this one you could try a layer on it and it might pop some buds below it. i don't know hornbeam but i have seen it on lots of deciduous species, and if it takes you have another tree.
Author:  BobbyLane [ 22 Sep 2015, 21:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
Bill, I didnt understand what you said about not being able to thicken a trunk without changing the nebari, surely if you just let a tree to its own devices while in the ground the trunk will thicken?

One final question as its not my thread, what if you already have a very good radial spread when planting tree in ground, is it still necessary to dig up and arrange roots? guess that all depends how much trunk thickening you want in the first place....i imagine a tree with a good spread will help serve to drag out the base of the tree as these roots thicken?
Author:  tismeisthatu [ 22 Sep 2015, 22:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
BobbyLane wrote:
From my experience with chopping trees and hard pruning, it usually triggers buds lower down to form, also when carrying out such work i feed heavily. but yes some trees can still be quite stubborn.
I didnt know a tree could survive without any growth on it for two years mate, let alone start callusing over. someone with better knowledge will advise you, im stumped on that one mate literally :-)

ps have you done the bark scratch test on this? :203pokey:


To be honest it's not quite 2 calander years but it has been this growing season & last year's growing season. I chopped it very early spring 2014 with no growth that year. This spring I chopped the very top off again just to see if there was green & to see if I could give it a kick start. It has been fed a whole variety of food from miracle grow to sea weed & tomorite, & watered the same as my other trees. I'm pretty sure it's still alive ( it's to late to check now) but I was really just trying to link it up with my other question & to decide whether to keep or throw away. Thanks for the replies
Author:  paulpash [ 22 Sep 2015, 22:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
tismeisthatu wrote:
Ok I have 2 questions. Firstly I have a hornbeam in the ground to thicken it up, which is what it is doing nicely but I have no branches or visible buds on the lower part of the tree. My 1st question is when it comes to chopping of the top will this force buds to appear roughly where I want them to. I ask this daft question as I had a hornbeam in a pot that I did not like but had the beginning of some nice nebari, so I chopped the top off trying to make a mame or shohin tree anticipating buds to break but after nearly 2 years no buds have appeared. It is still alive & is healing around the chop. Will it ever bud?
2nd question still concerning the same tree. Again nice nebari is there but how do I look after & control these roots? I need to keep the roots close to the tree for when I transfer it in to a pot. Do I lift it & cut back the roots & therefore slow down the growth of my tree. It has yet to reach my desired thickness I should add. Or do I let the tree grow on until desired size is met & then concentrate on the roots. Any tips or advice will be well received. I hope that all made sense, thanks.


I have chopped a hornbeam to a bare trunk several times and it has backbudded but there is no guarantee where or what buds will pop. "Usually" the buds closest to the chop point will be more vigourous, especially after a month or 2 when the tree decides which of the competing buds is going to be the new leader. Although hornbeam are more resilient than say Acers to being chopped without dieing back I'd still chop several inches above where I want the new leader to be and eradicate all buds above (thereby making my required bud stronger). When the tree realises that no viable buds above the chop point can be used it will naturally die back to the bud you want and you can remove it by sawing or nibbling back with your knob cutters. Be careful not to nibble too large a bit at a time - the wood is incredibly hard and you can easily bust the handle off (the common name of Ironwood is well deserved). I've made my chop around the beginning of May when it's romping away. This is what I loosely call a 'safety chop'.

A second, more conservative route is chop over 2 seasons - chop back to your first viable bud on your 1st branch. This should activate other buds lower. Next season go in and reduce again. Rinse and repeat til you chase growth back down the trunk.

A 3rd option is (if possible) is prep the tree for thread grafting now to complete it before bud break next year (do it in February). In this way you can be much more certain where your next trunk section or branch will be. Prep it by bending the lowest branch back down towards the trunk, tieing the end so that the apical stem is in the right spot to pass it through the trunk and onto your desired location on the trunk. The process is dead simple - I did a post on thread grafting an Oak and it's exactly the same for your Hornbeam.

The tree in the pot: If no buds have appeared after 2 years then are you sure it's alive? Trees don't heal ....they seal and compartmentalise the damaged area. To do this they need to grow - new wood is laid down as photosynthesis occurs. This is why the callus is a bit of a mystery - are you sure this didn't form when it had leaves? It might have been chopped, tried to heal til it's energy reserves ran out then died back. Hard pruning a weak, diseased or root compromised plant can be fatal.
Author:  Will [ 22 Sep 2015, 22:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
Looks dead to me?.... U sure it lives ?
Author:  Keith.W [ 22 Sep 2015, 23:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: buds and root query
I don't think the stump in the pot is alive unfortunately. The pot seems very small for a tree in development stage, I would have thought it would be in a pond basket or training pot of some kind. Just my thoughts it may surprise us ::dunno:
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