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Pine Question
http://weetrees.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16426		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Keith.W [ 20 May 2017, 21:37 ]
Post subject:  Pine Question
I have a few bits of Pine material that I use for practising and learning how Pine grow. This piece of material was given away at my club as the owner had sadly passed away. With no disrespect it was a bit neglected and had what I would call pom-pom growth. I chopped it down a bit and potted it into a garden sieve and inorganic medium. I know it will never be a show stopper but it has grown well but the needles were very big probably due to lack of foliage. Over the last couple of years I have used the techniques given on this forum and other sources. I have been rewarded with a lot of back budding which is good and the advice often given regarding Pine is to chase foliage back toward the trunk. My question is at what point do I chop off the dominant buds which produce the big needles and use the smaller back buds, time of year, when are the smaller buds big enough to carry on the growth etc. I have a few photos to try and show what I mean
The tree
ImageIMG_1474 by Keith, on Flickr

Some photos of the back budding
ImageIMG_1367 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1368 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1370 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1372 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1475 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1476 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1476 by Keith, on Flickr

I hope that makes sense any advice most welcome
Author:  paulpash [ 20 May 2017, 22:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
I use this method to activate small backbuds AFTER you have a lot of energy flowing through the branch. Don't do this on a weak branch - it won't respond very well.

1: Let candles grow on your target branch til mid / late July or early August until needles harden off. Test pull to see if they have hardened off.
2: Cut these candles off to leave 2 or 3 pairs of needles remaining using sharp scissors, cutting between needles straight across the candle. Typically you leave only an 1/8 inch or so of this year's growth at the end.
3: Reduce buds at cut point to as few as possible given there are other buds further back. If there's only the small backbud we want to strengthen visible leave 2 at end of this year's cut candle as insurance. I do this in Autumn but any time before it starts to grow is fine.
4: Next Spring when I see the small backbud we want to strengthen throwing extension growth (albeit weak) I will pinch out the strongest bud that has started to elongate at last year's cut point. We now have the energy split between 2 buds.
5: Candle cut or prune away the growth again at the tip of the branch. Hopefully by now the backbud is strong enough to push stronger growth to be developed next season. Throughout this 2/3 year transition do not touch this backbud at all - leave all needles & extension in tact - we want it to get strong!

The goal / thinking is that we are slowly channeling more and more energy into that small bud we want to develop through apical restriction and limiting number of buds that can siphon energy away from our target. Like a hose the fewer outlets that are available the greater the 'spurt' of growth. It's very important this bud gets maximum light - angle it towards the sun and wire away anything shading it.
HTH
Author:  Keith.W [ 21 May 2017, 00:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Thanks Paul, I like the "hose" analogy it makes more sense strangely enough. Again without repeating everything it's all about patience and studying the growth rate of every branch and trying to equal it all out while keeping the tree as healthy as possible. That's my goal anyway :201thumbup:
Author:  paulpash [ 21 May 2017, 12:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Pines are very much a puzzle sometimes and trying to develop them successfully from raw stock requires a plan and a systematic approach applied every season. I tag branches now to remind me if they are keepers or sacrifices. Being more challenging than growing most other species, it's very satisfying when it starts to 'click' and the tree noticeably moves forward.

You should be very proud of what you've done with your Big Pine Project, taking it to a good looking image from meager beginnings. Any mugo or Scots you get from now on will be a piece of cake :)

Growing pines from small bushy seedlings is great fun and you have far more control over shape & branch placement - you obviously have the skills & knowledge to grow some great trees so it might be worth a shot. I really enjoy looking at my little pine projects over an IPA or two and forming a growing plan for each.
Author:  Keith.W [ 21 May 2017, 21:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Thanks for the kind words Paul, I feel I am slowly getting to grips with Pine :201thumbup:
Another question if I may, can there be such a thing as too much back budding, by that I mean if there are too many buds can it cause future problems or is it a case of selecting the strongest and removing the others. Take my rescued Pine for instance
ImageIMG_1488 by Keith, on Flickr

This tree is growing strongly and is producing lots of buds further down the branch but as these are growing close together it may mean I get the classic "Whorl" of branches so is it wise to select these new shoots for direction, strength etc
ImageIMG_1487 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1486 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1484 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1483 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1482 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1481 by Keith, on Flickr
ImageIMG_1479 by Keith, on Flickr
Author:  paulpash [ 22 May 2017, 11:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Yes, some of those candles are too close and they'll lead to whorls which are knuckle formers & are too congested to form a good looking branch structure. After they've hardened off in July I'd go through your entire tree and reduce these to two. Only 2 buds max should be left at each point in future - cluster buds lead to whorls. Select buds depending on where they are pointing (ie if they don't emerge from the sides they are not going to make good branches). I always remove buds that emerge from the very top of a branch, buds from underneath the branches, buds in existing branch crotches, cluster buds (2 max if needed). The basic rule is to ask yourself, 'is a candle really needed here?' If the answer is no then get rid of the bud before it can extend. It's perfectly possible to remove a whole raft of buds if you don't need shoots there.

To stop whorls happening in future you need to do bud selection (I do it mid October but I know others that wait til just before candles push in Spring). Go through the whole tree and look for unwanted buds which will later of course become unwanted shoots / whorls. Use your fingers to remove these, push or twisting them til they snap off cleanly. Finally, if possible leave the fatter buds on the lower branches and the weaker ones at the top as the tree starts to refine. Over time as you balance the tree the buds should hopefully roughly equalise as strength is more evenly distributed. If an area is too strong then needle prune it to remove some of the solar panels in that area. Needle prune by cutting off the needles leaving a few mm at the base. In time it will wither and fall off. Needle prune where you don't really want a bud to form.

HTH.
Author:  Keith.W [ 22 May 2017, 21:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Thanks for taking the time to give a concise answer, I will use this method in future. I was kind of puzzled whether to leave as much of the back budding to gain vigour or select the ones that I will use so that's cleared a few things for me. Onwards and upwards :201thumbup:
Author:  paulpash [ 23 May 2017, 19:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Once it's strong then bud selection becomes very important to move the tree forward. If you allow unwanted buds to become candles which will need to be removed later the tree is wasting energy pushing growth where it's not needed for the design. Use sacrifice branches to strengthen your pine but ensure keeper branches are well managed using bud selection, candle pruning and needle thinning techniques.
Author:  David B [ 27 May 2017, 19:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pine Question
Great post and answers guys - many thanks.
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