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Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
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Author:  Dustmonkey [ 15 Aug 2018, 21:41 ]
Post subject:  Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Good evening All!

I won A JWP from eBay for a stupidly cheap price on the weekend, due to its condition/ appearance it didn't get many bids and it was a bargain (i think anyway)
I picked it up Monday and got it home and I've been pondering on the best course of action to bring it back to health.

History from the previous owner..... It was bought 20 years ago as a mature japanese import from peter chan at herons bonsai .

Its was neglected for 8 years after a house move and was kept alive by a friend as the new house had no garden. when he moved again
to a house with a garden he got the tree back and there its stayed and left to grow free for the last 12 years....

it has not been fed or re potted since it left the nursery 20 years ago!!

all its had is rain and the odd watering in the summer months.

its lost most of its larger branches and and rear ones and has 3 areas of foliage left.
the needles look fairly sickly to although i appreciate the most yellow ones will be the 3 year old growth and soon be falling.
it looks greener in my photos ill attach but its quite a sickly hue. the soil had a thick layer of moss which ive removed to try and dry it out a little

So its clearly weak and had a bit of a decline for a couple of decades but what i'm wondering is... will it shock/ harm it if after all these years i suddenly start feeding it until the end of the season?
if it was a young tree i wouldn't worry, but it being so old and long been through the refinement process and out the other side i don't know how it will respond. I have zero experience with mature trees and only a little with younger ones!!

i have tamahi which I've put 2 cakes on the soil but until i water i doubt they will do much, i also have regular miracle gro but im reluctant to use as it might damage the mycorrhiza?? but as theres so little of the season left i feel it needs a good dose of some kind of nutrient/ fertiliser to pull it out of decline. any recommendations on fertiliser for this scenario would be welcome as well as any advice in general on how you would approach this tree as im a bit out my depth.

My plan if its strong enough is to repot in spring , wait a year then deal with the foliage but with out food im not so sure it will be be strong enough by spring 2019 so might have to wait until 2020?

thanks for reading and apologies for the essay!!

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Author:  Harry [ 15 Aug 2018, 22:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Very nice I think with a bit of time and patience it will make a lovely tree
Author:  paulpash [ 15 Aug 2018, 22:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
I would take it to someone proficient in grafting and have them graft foliage closer to the trunk. A lot of the foliage is either miles away from the trunk or the dead branches have created big voids which will make it impossible to create a good image. JWP don't backbud as well as JBP - I don't think given the age of the tree you can rely on just the tree to provide you with the foliage necessary to restore this tree to its former glory.
Author:  Sizzla [ 16 Aug 2018, 08:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Nice find, sure with those flexible branches you could really create something nice with a full wiring.

Let's focus on the positives: tapered trunk, thick base, deadwood opportunities, great bark, good branch ramification, foliage low down.

It has loads going for it, at least you don't need to spend decades growing a trunk like this, it's already been done. I'm sure it will be very happy to get out of that soil when the time comes.
Author:  Red Dog [ 16 Aug 2018, 08:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Having seen what you paid for it I think you have got an absolute bargain there. As Sizzla says there are plenty of positives, its even in a nice pot. I would be tempted to slip pot it into something larger if you can with a free draining substrate for now.
Author:  John M [ 16 Aug 2018, 09:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
It's basically a lovely tree, from the glory days of Herons - but it needs lots of TLC.

This is what I would do if it were mine:
1) Just leave it as is in its present pot until next March/April - but water daily
and feed a couple of times before winter - say, end August, end September.
Remove the year 3 yellow needles round about October.
2) Next March/April slip it into a slightly bigger pot. If it's a Herons tree the roots
will probably be basically well formed so you shouldn't have to sort anything out
underground for the moment. Grow it on peacefully for a whole year, doing nothing
else but the usual things - water, feed, remove candles late spring 2019, remove
yellow needles in October 2019. This will give it a chance to show any back budding,
and whether those bare branches are really dead or just pretending because they are
fed up with not being cared for.
3) By spring 2020 you will know much more about its character, and you can now
start properly growing it on - prune, deal with any really dead branches,
begin to wire if necessary, encourage back budding, etc etc.

Good luck! Pines take time. Take yours! J.
Author:  Garyjc [ 16 Aug 2018, 14:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Very sound advice by JohnM
If it were mine I would first check that the soil is draining correctly as it is highly likely it's not and that could be part of the reason it has lost so much foliage,if it's been in that pot 20 years it must be root/pot bound,and this will need rectifying first before anything else.
Regards feeding it I would recommend just using fish emulsion every other week,pines love it and it's very gentle on the roots.
Author:  Dustmonkey [ 17 Aug 2018, 12:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Thank you for all the replies chaps!

Its defiantly been light deprived looking at the direction all the foliage is pointing in. Drainage is also a problem after watering it yesterday it took a long time to drip through the bottom of the pot.

Thank you Harry, im hoping so to, i would love to see a photo of it 20 years ago!

Paul, i like this idea and agree that the tree probably wont be able to recover the loss in the correct places on its own. I think maybe in a year or 2 if it's recovered and healthy again grafting would be the way forward. Ive heard its notoriously hard to get a graft to establish on pines, does the age of the tree affect its chance of success? Is there anybody you know of that you would recommend for the job?

Thanks Sizzla, thats what drew me to it despite it being in a bit of a state it still has a lot of positives in its favour and given time those posotives will out weigh the negatives! :-) I doubt it will ever be as good as it used to be but i think there is potential in it to be a interesting tree again! It definatly needs to get out of that soil tho!

Red Dog, did you see the auction? It was a ridiculously low price , i really didn't expect to be the highest bidder for a second! it cost me more in fuel and seven bridge toll than the tree did! I ended up giving the previous owner some extra money as the other large tree he listed sold for 10 quid... :shock: I would have bought that to if i had the room!

John, this is excellent advice! i was thinking along those lines as a course of action and you've filled in some blanks for me and made it clearer! its really appreciated Thank you very much!!:Big Thumb: ive been looking at the foliage more closely and a lot of it blocks light to adjacent branches and needles, would a selective light wiring of a few branches strategically moved to let in light better be beneficial in your opinion or would it be detrimental to the trees recovery?

Garyjc, drainage is defiantly an issue, there is way to much organic matter in between the grit, i removed all the moss that was covering the surface but its produced a lot of organic material in the last 20 years so I've carefully removed the top half inch its left to reveal the original substrate beneath but its dense and compacted with the material. Ah brilliant thank you for the feed advice, thats really helpful ,i will pick some up fish emulsion ASAP!

I discovered a bit of a problem yesterday tho, the lowest dead branch felt spongey to the touch and on closer inspection i could see white mould through a gap in the bark so i started carefully removing it along its length which fell away easily to reveal a white mass of decomposing wood! the branch has rotted about 40% of its mass and the rotted spongy wood extends into the trunk and behind the bark about half an inch. i didnt want to do anything to this tree untill its made it through the winter but this looks fairly serious , would lime sulphur help stop the fungus getting deeper into the trunk over the winter? i dont mind losing most of the branch so much but it will leave a massive hole in the trunk should it rot completely.

Thanks again for all your input folks!
Author:  juglansnigra [ 18 Aug 2018, 12:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
My recommendation would be to act now, repot immediately (with minimal root disturbance) into a larger pot and back fill with pure pumice. Use a chop stick around the edge of the existing roots to see if they are active and to remove any loose soil as to me it looks like a very wet compacted mix which is not good for pines. You can do a proper re-pot in the Spring but this will allow for immediate aeration to the roots and allow the tree to push new roots in to the pumice. I have used this successfully as a technique for bonsai and garden trees to aid with health recovery.
Author:  Gary Jones [ 18 Aug 2018, 12:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Japanese White Pine thats seen better days!
Best of luck with this. At least it has a chance again.
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